Vereinbarte fristlose Kündigung

  • I hope this forum accepts submission in English, I couldn't find anything about it in the rules . Otherwise let me know, and I can try to translate the post.


    - I rented a flat in a big city on south of Germany for 800 Euros

    - the renter was a friend of my girlfriend's mom, which is living in some other country since December, and considering moving there permanently

    - she didn't want to ask the landlord for permission, because she feared having the request denied, so we just make an unofficial verbal agreement

    - she just tell us the rent value, never mention any ancillary costs payments

    - she tells me my girlfriend can move in with me, that it's no problem

    - [1] given the Corona situation, she tell us that if things get worse, she might have to come back to Germany straight away, with no notice period, which we agree

    - [2] given the flat was unused for so long, it was dirty, but we don't mention anything about it

    - we move in on February 28th


    - On the May 1st she tries to raise the rent price, saying we have to pay 30 Euros more for the additional costs

    - on the message she sends me, she says it's an raise ("Unfortunately I have to raise the energy charges"), in my eyes also admitting this was never agreed before

    - I say we're not paying, and ask her if we should move out because of the disagreement

    - [3] she always fails to mention the heating costs we payed every month, both only used for a few weeks (meaning she would probably have to gives us money back instead)

    - although she is bothered, she doesn't want us to move out, so she says it's ok if we keep paying 800 Euros


    - on May 16th, I tell her I don't want to have any surprise extra charges, so I confirm with her the 800 Euros price

    - we have some discussion, in which I mention the heating costs that she would have to probably refund us, but in the end she says "We should just stop this conversation. So just send me 800 and I am fine."


    - on June 29th we find another flat for July, and say we're moving out

    - she says we have to pay for 2 weeks (400 Euros), which is the usual notice period (which we agreed not to have [1])

    - we say we're not paying

    - she also tells us to do the handover with the neighbor, which we also didn't agree before, but we do it anyway

    - She gives the neighbor some checklist, we go through everything, and she mentions no problem with the flat

    ⠀ ⠀

    - she keeps bothering us, and even calling my girlfriend's parents about the two weeks payment

    - I block her from WhatsApp

    - [4] she makes some sort of agreement with my girlfriend's parents, and says if we did clean the flat better, and pay the extra additional costs, Which she got from the energy company (110 euros) everything would be over

    - although we got the flat dirty [2], we have cleaned the flat before moving out, so we deny both requests

    - Again she fails to mention the heating costs [3], which we almost didn't use

    ⠀ ⠀

    - she keeps bothering my girlfriend, which gives in, and, without telling me, pays the 110 Euros and says she would clean the flat (I'm not sure if it was written or spoken)

    - when my girlfriend tells me about it, I don't like that she did it, but I still help her clean the flat

    ⠀ ⠀

    - we thought things were over


    - on the August 3rd, I got an email, saying she talked to some lawyer, and he told her that we still had to pay for the 2 weeks notice, implying she would take legal measures if we don't pay

    - she is failing to honor [1] and [4]

    - she also mentions some small damage to one furniture, which was never mentioned in the Übergabe, and we are sure it was either like this before, or the neighbor made it


    Does she really have a case against us? Specially considering most of the agreements weren't made officially, we only having some WhatsApp messages, that, in my view, would strengthen my points.


    This whole situation is being very stressful for me, so I want to know if I can also take some legal measure against her to put an end to this definitively?


    If possible, just out of spite, I would want back either the heating costs we didn't use, or the 110 Euros my girlfriend paid, since our original agreement was only for 800 Euros.

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  • I hope this forum accepts submission in English

    Ich hoffe, das Forum akzeptiert auch Fragen in Englisch

    Usually not but we can make an exception.

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    Normalerweise nicht, aber wir machen eine Ausnahme.

    Specially considering most of the agreements weren't made officially

    Besonders wenn man berücksichtigt, dass die Vereinbarungen nicht schriftlich gemacht wurden

    That's a real problem if there are no written agreements. While spoken agreements are legally valid too it might be difficult to bring up evidences about spoken words. In doubt a court would adjudicate by law. Whatsapp messages might be valid as evidence but must not necessarily.

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    Das ist ein großes Problem, wenn es keine schriftlichen Vereinbarungen gibt. Obwohl mündliche Vereinbarungen auch wirksam sind, ist es schwierig, Beweise dafür vorzubringen. Ein Gericht würde im Zweifel nach dem Gesetz entscheiden. Whatsapp kann ein Beweis sein, muss es aber nicht.

    and he told her that we still had to pay for the 2 weeks notice, implying she would take legal measures if we don't pay

    Er sagte ihr, wir hätten noch für 2 Wochen Kündigungsfrist zu zahlen, andernfalls würden rechtliche Schritte eingeleitet

    According to law that is a good solution you probably want to accept. The notice period is usually 3 month, not two weeks. There is a law which implies 2 weeks, but that refers to if the lessor lives in the same flat too which is not the case here.

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    Was das Gesetz betrifft ist das eine gute Lösung, die du vielleicht akzeptieren möchtest. Die Kündigungsfrist ist üblicherweise 3 Monate. nicht 2 Wochen. Es gibt zwar ein Ein Gesetz, das eine Kündigungsfrist von 2 Wochen vorsieht, aber das bezieht sich nur auf den Fall, wenn der Vermieter in der gleichen Wohnung wohnt, was hier nicht der Fall ist.

    I would want back either the heating costs we didn't use

    Ich möchte die unverbrauchten Heizkoten zurück bekommen

    That is an open question if you would get back money. After making the deduction it might end up that you have to pay more depending on the result.

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    Diese Frage ist offen, ob du wirklich Geld zurück bekommen würdest. Wenn eine Heizkostenabrechnung erstellt wird, kann sich dabei vielleicht eine Nachzahlung ergeben.

  • Usually not but we can make an exception.

    Thank you, and thank you so much for answering as well.

    The notice period is usually 3 month, not two weeks.

    Even considering we explicitly agreed not to have a notice period? And then how am I going to know the person isn't going to change her mind one more time, and then start charging me for the 3 months? We had already agreed there would be no more charges after the Nebenkosten payment.

    In doubt a court would adjudicate by law.

    Does she really has all this protection, even with an illegal agreement such as this one?

    I'm so fed up with this, I might just take the risk and go to court, in case that's what she plans to do.


    Also, I assume you are just looking in a defensive perspective of what could happen, right? Or do you really think I'm wrong about all the points I brought up about the agreement (not having Nebenkosten, she later agreeing not to have it again, not having a notice period).

  • Does she really has all this protection

    Hat sie wirklich diesen Schutz

    Usually not. The law is intended to stengthen the right of the renter. But that does not help very much if you have not enough evidence about the spoken words. Thats your problem and your misstake not to write down and sign the agreement. The risk of loosing at the court is increased.

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    Normalerweise nicht. Das Gesetz ist so gemacht, dass es die Rechte des Mieters stärkt. Aber das hilft nicht viel weiter, wenn man keine ausrechenden Beweise zu mündlichen Vereinbarungen hat. Das ist das Problem und dein Fehler, dass nichts schriftlich festgelegt wurde. Das Risiko, bei Gericht zu verlieren, ist höher.

    And then how am I going to know the person isn't going to change her mind one more time

    Und woher kann ich wissen, dass die Person nicht nochmal die Meinung ändert und mehr verlangt

    I can just give the advice that you make a written termination agreement and sign it both. Clearify everything and define the points as completed. So there is no room for later requests.

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    Ich kann dir nur den Rat geben, einen schriftlichen Aufhebungsvertrag von beiden Seiten zu unterschreiben. Kläre darin alles und definiert die vereinbarten Punkte als vollständig. Dann kann es später keine Einwände mehr geben.

    you are just looking in a defensive perspective of what could happen, right?

    Du schaust nach einer sicheren Betrachtung was vielleicht passieren könnte, richtig?

    Right, i am not a lawyer but i feel responsible for the members needing help not to run in a lawsuit where the chance to obtain is probably not very good. It happens daily that a renter is totally right but judge does see it from another perspective.

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    Richtig, ich bin keine Anwalt, aber ich fühle mich verantwortlich für die hilfesuchenden Benutzer, sie nicht in einen Rechtsstreit laufen zu lassen, bei dem die Chance zu gewinnen nicht gut ist. Es passiert täglich, dass ein Mieter im Recht ist, aber der Richter den Sachverhalt anders sieht.